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Saturday 7 September 2019

#49 Joyo ZoMBie, part two - analysis and repair

It took the best part of an evening and a couple hours the next day, but i managed to lift the schematic for the whole preamp board. I also recreated the board, but that was mostly for sanity-checking. I used all the same component designators, but didn't bother measuring all the dozens of small ceramic caps, because there's only SO far i'm willing to go...


Quite involved, as you can probably notice. After the input buffer, the clean channel goes through one half of the 12AX7, one half of the gain adjust (dual-gang) potentiometer, including a bit of tone-shaping, and a twin-T notch-filter. The "OD" channel is more complex, as one might expect - a mid-boost (achieved via using a transistor-based gyrator, an "electronic inductor", in the feedback of an opamp), an adjustable gain stage (1.2x to 46x or so), a pair of clipping diodes, followed another mid-boost stage (using two gyrators this time) and another twin-T notch-filter.

Apart from the input, the rest of the circuitry common to both channels is comprised of the second half of the 12AX7, then a buffer driving the tone control, and the output stage. The audio jumps over to the power board and out to the effects-loop, possibly "through" the headphone output (there's a switch built into the jack socket), back to the preamp board to the volume control, and then finally into the power amp. The Bluetooth audio gets mixed into the signal at some point in that area as well (likely pre-volume-knob).

Right then, on to the tone control troubleshooting. The potentiometer itself actually seems fine, at least on direct measurements. And given the schematic and how it's connected into the circuit, if the wiper connection was wonky, the sound would go off completely, not "only" change its tonal character. Plus the "it works on some power-ups, at least for a while" thing shouldn't (or rather, couldn't) have anything to do with this potentiometer, despite its ever so slightly doubtful appearance.

Routed some music to an analog output of my audio interface going into the input, and the effects send back into an analog input, and listened back only to the latter. A few minutes in, and the fault manifested itself again - tone control ineffective, but leaning on the muffled side. Also, slow but noticeable volume variations seem to be happening. Briefly i considered the tube being at fault, but looking at the tone control chunk of the schematic, i'm now starting to wonder whether C91 and/or C93 might have something to do with it.

Either way, probing-around time, DC voltages edition. Pin 1 of the last opamp in the chain (IC4 in my reverse-engineered schematic) shows around 7V, as one might expect (mid-supply), which then goes to one end of C91. Probing the other end of C91 shows the same 6.9-7V, but there's a noticeable little "pop" noise whenever my probe makes contact there.

Slight correction time - i was struggling to redraw the resistors and capacitors in the tone control area. In the process, i discovered that one end of R93 did not in fact connect to the groundplane, but to C93 right next to it, and one end of the tone potentiometer. After that, on the third version of the redrawn arrangement, it actually DID start to make sense - an old-school tone stack as you'd find on a Fender or Marshall, but with only the treble being adjustable. Here's the corrected and rearranged version then.


Well, at least now we've got something to work with, and even some kinda-sorta-ballpark values to expect. I just removed them from the board, and tested them "externally"; all showed believable values, within normal tolerances (C86 & C93 27nF, C91 470pF, all three resistors fine).

 This is how the frequency response of the tone stack itself should be, at both ends of the treble knob (the "Tone" control on this amp). Hmm... If i reinstall only the 470pF cap but none of the other parts, that should result in a "flat" response, regardless of the tone control. Actually, it should then only act as somewhat of a volume control, in conjunction with the R40 after it, as well as somewhat of a high-pass filter (280-340Hz, depending on the travel of the pot).

So far, so good - i get a liiiitle level variation between the two ends of the pot travel. Adding the resistors back in (specifically R81 and R93; R89 would have one terminal unconnected to anything) should turn the tone control into an even more noticeable volume control. And that results iiiiin... Nothing at all. No more level variation, regardless of where the pot wiper is.

I whipped up a tonestack in LTspice, just to run some numbers, and with the two 27nF caps removed, but with the 150k and 18k resistors installed, i should get about 8dB of difference between the pot's ends-of-travel. What if i replace that 150k resistor, though? Nope. With a 1kHz test signal, i'm getting a variation of about 1.5dB, which is quite odd, at least to my mind.

Right then, i've had it, out come the two 27nF caps in the tone stack, in go two pairs of brand new 10nF ones, it's time to eliminate those as variables as well. While they don't seem to measure wrong, they may well be behind the seemingly intermittent fault. And even if they're not, they're one less thing to worry about. While i'm at the "shotgun approach" stage, out come the big guns - some frequency sweeps.


I didn't consider this before the capacitor swap, but one out of two isn't too-too bad, right? Either way, this is a sweep on the clean channel, at each end of the tone control (as per the labels at the bottom of the window). Keeping in mind there's a notch-filter upstream of this, as well as quite likely some high-passing as well, i'd say the sweeps match the Tone Stack Calculator predictions above quite well (a couple dB difference in the lows, and about 10dB in the highs).

I'm putting this thing back together, and see when some real-world tests can be arranged / run. I'll update this if the problem rears its annoying head again.

43 comments:

  1. hi, can you post a downloadable/printable version of the circuit layout? Amazing blog, Thanks

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    1. This may or may not be motivation for you to perhaps dip your toes into one of the free CAD packages?

      Or if you really, REALLY wanted to, you could open up either of the screenshots of the schematics in an image editing software (plenty of free ones out there), and invert the colours. But sure, it's a lot easier to have it all done for you already, i know ;)

      I'm all for helping people, but i'm afraid i (have to) draw the line at "not even trying" :)

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    2. Already done the color-inversion thing, decent enough. Worst case i'll draw it with a CAD software. Thanks a lot

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    3. There you go, then. Good luck with... whatever you intend to do with it :)

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  2. Can you tell me a way to put two separate volume controls for od and clean channel. I don't have the money to buy zombie version 2.

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    1. I don't think it's easy as (i'm pretty sure) the volume pot is located after the tone stack that is shared between the two channels, i think that placing a resistor/pot right before r49/c48 it's gonna do it... Like a "channel volume"

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  3. Did you ever get around to changing the tube or increasing the power going to the tube and if you did will you be doing a write up of that as well?

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    1. You can increase the tube gain by increasing R31, but as the gain is after the clipping diodes and it's used as last stage preamp right before the tone stack... You are gonna get more volume,or you are probably just increasing the distorsion right before the power ic

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    2. No, i haven't bothered with any mods. The amp isn't mine but a friend's, and he didn't request any mods or upgrades to it, so... We were both content with getting the tone control working again.

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  4. Thanks for the comments, I just ordered one and I’m hoping to not see the same issue with the tone knob, but am a little concerned it’s going to be just as loud as the blackstar combo I have, hoping louder and better suited for heavy riffs.

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    1. Well, my friend bought it as faulty for really cheap, with that known issue. All i can say is that the gain, even post-effects-loop, is borderline ridiculous. Makes the volume knob reeeeeeeeeally twitchy, you only have to turn it a bit to get it from "just loud enough with an 8" cab" to "holy effin' hell, stop strumming!!!". Although, full disclosure, that was in a living room.

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    2. Could the TPA3118 power amplifier run 4 ohms speakers? If yes, is needed (and safe) to increase the power supply to 21v? Thank you.

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    3. The answer to both of those questions can be found in the datasheet (Figure 22, since the 3118 is configured in PBTL mode, ie. Parallel Bridge-Tied Load):

      http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tpa3118d2.pdf

      But in short, yes and yes. On the other hand though, i can't comment on how well the heatsinking of the chip is done, through the PCB. But on the other hand, even at "just" 19V, a TP3118 in my own testing was able to run a 4x10" + 1x15" bass rig to "sufficient" levels, while barely getting even luke-warm, so...

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    4. I'm thinking of testing the amp in a 2x12 box with 4 ohms connection, at bedroom levels ... Joyo says minimum 8 ohms. What do you think?? The biggest concern would be the heating, or some other component could be damaged?

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    5. The output inductors may or may not saturate, but that's a concern only at high output levels. My guess is, Joyo (or whoever their parent company is) preferred to hedge their bets (and use cheaper and lower-rated components), and just "play it safe" regarding minimum speaker impedance rating.

      That being said, i'd kinda rather expect the (stock) power brick to "start sweating" before anything in the amplifier itself gets anywhere near its limits. Because price points...

      But what exactly are you hoping to achieve by powering it with a slightly higher voltage? More "dynamics"? That maybe only applies to tube power stages. More volume? Maybe a couple more unclipped output watts. But on the dirty channel, the signal's clipped to all hell even before it reaches the power amp, so you'd be hard-pressed to notice any difference, if at all. And even that would only show up in the upper half of the volume adjust. But by then, the speakers themselves will (also) be distorting, so.....

      PS: Using a lower-than-specified impedance speaker, despite the power chip being well-enough equipped to handle it, definitely doesn't "need" a higher supply voltage; if anything, it might "need" lowering it. But i would argue that only applies if you'd be hitting some current limits. The chip is specified for 7.5A per each of the two outputs, so 15A in total since they're paralleled, which means that's a moot point.

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    6. Not sure if it’s because two speakers out because the ohm change, but I think it actually sounds better when I run 16ohm on the 2x10 I cobbled together with a impedance switch.

      Regarding running it at 4 Ohm what components do you think would fail that could be replaced to prevent it?
      I got lucky enough to get a 4x12 cab listed as empty for free and found working speakers that needed wiring, put a 4/8 impedance switch on it and wired them up. Have used it in 8 ohm 2x12 configuration and it’s pretty loud already.

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    7. The impedance switch does 8 or 16 on the 2x10 and 4 or 8 on the 4x12.

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    8. Since the TPA3118 uses a pre-filter feedback arrangement, the load impedance WILL have an effect on the frequency response, but only on the top end (>10kHz). "Sounds better" is a very very vague, not to mention subjective assessment, though ;)

      What components could fail? That bottom-of-the-barrely power brick, to begin with. But the cable between the power brick and the amp may well act as a "fuse", so... Other than that, maybe the output inductors, but i'm not sure i'd even worry about those, really. It depends a lot on what levels you're planning to use (or "abuse") with the lower-impedance load, though. But on the other hand, for the same output voltage amplitude, the lower-impedance may well be louder to begin with, anyway.

      How exactly is the 4/8 ohm or 8/16 ohm switching operating, really? And are both speakers working, on both settings? I've (only) seen 4x12's with either separate inputs, or switches, for 16/4 ohms, or 4 ohms and stereo 2x8 ohms.

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    9. I’d try it, but I like my little amp.
      By sounds better I mean tighter response, more clarity and slightly less bass.

      I have a 2PDT switch toggling wiring, the 4x12 was less complicated to figure out and only enables parallel between a set of series and the 2x10 enables the second in series.

      So to describe.

      8/16 ohm selector single/series
      Pins:
      1 3 5
      2 3 6

      1 Jack - terminal
      3 speaker A - terminal
      5 speaker B + terminal
      2 empty
      4 Jack - terminal
      6 speaker B - terminal

      On the 4x12 I had help finding the best configuration for wiring all four and then I split the connection into essentially a on/off switch.
      This is the solution I found, the switch is rated for 6A so I’m not too worried.

      My crappy diagram, solid lines being 8 ohm and constant and colorful lines being 4 ohm toggle.
      It’s probably more like 5 and 9, but close enough nothing releases magical smoke.

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/vjj7u71e63ah9f1/E31F1E38-147C-4465-8447-3A5ADC8512EF.png?dl=0

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    10. Thanks for the answers. I have a Vivo bantamp, which would be based on the 5150 pevey, it also has tons of gain, and is very, very loud. I even exchanged the original valve for a 5751, and noticed a reduction in gain and better clarity, which I liked. So my intention in relation to testing it with a 2x12 cabinet at 4 ohms would be to obtain less compression, more dynamics, a more open sound in general, because I realized that when using the cabinet at 16 ohms the sound lost a bit of the brightness and it got more compressed. So if I decide to turn it on at 4 ohms at low volume (without going over level 3), what would be your preventive recommendations? Can I use the original power brick or should I use a better one, what would be the specification? Should I open the housing to improve ventilation in the components? Would it be possible to make some kind of external or internal security adaptation?

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    11. "More clarity" may be due to the more peaky response in the top end, as opposed to lower impedances. "Less bass" could be just the masking effect occurring.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auditory_masking

      Ok, the single-or-series makes sense then.

      I wonder what "compressed" sound is, in this context, if i'm honest. Using different speakers would make infinitely more difference than whatever resulting load impedance is used.

      But if you're only intending to use the lower-impedance load (cabinet) at lower volumes, i wouldn't worry, or bother with any modifications, really. By "level 3" i assume you mean 3-out-of-10, rather than "3 o'clock", right?

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    12. Yes, it's 3 out of 10, 9 o'clock. I will test it at some point and post the result here. This possibility of using 4 ohms at low volume makes these mini amps even more versatile. The only drawback really is the difference in volume between the channels. I still haven't found a modification to balance the volume of the channels or to add an individual pot for one of them. Anyway, thanks for the help.

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    13. Well, without adding in some extra switching circuitry (that would be triggered by the actual channel switch), and routing the signal through at least one more potentiometer... Yeah, there's no easy / simple mod for that.

      I took that as a lesson for a range of mini-amps i'm developing myself, actually.

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    14. I’m sure adding in a onboard eq would be a pain as well.
      I really like my zombie as is and didn’t buy the second version because I’m not switching back and forth from clean to gain often.
      Why bother if you have and build pedals (Madbean makes awesome boards) and want something with a little more of a bright distortion sound.

      I’m interested to see how using 4Ohm goes, please do report back on the power supply and if something does go let us know that too. If it can be done at half volume I think I’d be interested, full bore would be nice too with a power adapter upgrade.

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    15. Cool that you're doing mini-amps.
      Another option I thought about was using the 2x12 cabinet in stereo. For that I thought about splitting the signal from the effects loop send, returning one of them to the amp and plugging into one of the speakers and the other output plugging into a mini power amp such as the Mooer Baby Bomb and plugging into the other speaker. So I would have both speakers at 8 ohms in stereo and with the possibility to adjust the individual volume...

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    16. Have you tried it yet Buzz?
      How did it go?

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    17. So I found out the other day I have run this amp on a 4 Ohm 2x12 cab... It was only for maybe a hour and anything over 1/2 gain and volume was too loud for the small room my friend has his gear in.

      Didn't realize it until I took my new tube amp over so he could check it out too, but as far as I knew it was 8 Ohm and the power pack didn't seem to get hot or anything, it did tend to squeal, but it does that on the 2x10 I built also at high gain and oddly enough it doesn't seem as loud now since the other day I had plugged it into my 4x12 with it set to 2x12 mode (8 Ohm) and the tube went. Now was it due to me having tried it on a cab we thought was 8 Ohm a couple months ago? Maybe or maybe it was just a faulty tube, the odd thing is how it acted considering it had been played on that set of speakers a few times now and loudly. The difference was the fuzz pedal I was plugged into and it seemed to be from that pedal being on that it couldn't take it in that combination, the power LED blinked off and it was cutting in and out, then it went really low on the volume, later that day I took the cover off and tapped, sure enough microphonic tube and still low volume, but it seemed to recover some, it's still not quite as loud as it was originally and Joyo offered a replacement, but I got them to replace the tube and since it was a Amazon order I basically got to choose and they refunded me for the tube cost. Put the $16 Tung-Sol in and it's back exactly as it was before short a small amount of volume on the clean channel, maybe 3 or so dB. Could just be my imagination or having been using a different amp for a week. XD

      Also another side note to take in, slaving from the send on the Zombie to my Bugera V55hd Infinium return resulted in a undesired extreme uncontrollable volume, all volume knobs set to 0 on both amps and it was massively loud, guitar volume knob had it's chance to be on something other than 10 for a change.
      Now I am wondering why this works for other amps, but not the Zombie? I've seen it done with a Orange Micro Terror into another Bugera, I did notice the volume was turned down on the Micro, but there was nothing said in the video about it being extremely loud and uncontrollable from one amp, but that the Bugera knobs would no longer do anything.

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    18. First of all - punctuation and phrasing, man... "Stream of consciousness" type paragraphs aren't easy to read through.

      The power pack squealed? Doubtful the preamp tube had jack all to do with what cab the power amp is hooked up to. You can bet that both the tube AND power supply are absolute bottom of the barrel, mass-produced, barely functional but dirt cheap stuff.

      "A small amount of volume on the clean channel" makes no sense.

      I can't say what sort of signal level comes out of the Zombie effects send. All I know for sure is that "even" on the return, there's a crap load of gain going on still, before the volume knob.

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    19. Well I mean the volume was rolled down on everything, hardly moving gain up even .5% from 0 made things worse... so yea crap load of gain.

      I was getting high gain squeal, nothing physically and just feedback.

      The tube only had L045 stamped, so probably a cheap tube, I may try with a different power pack at some point, what voltage and amperage do you think would be within the safe zone and not pushing my luck to far?

      I’ve not been in school for a long while, so my punctuation isn’t great anymore. XD

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    20. To be honest, i'm still not 100000% sure what exactly that big block of text is all about, or the context, or... Yeah...

      Regarding the power supply, anything between 20-24V should be fine, and as many amps as you can spare (i wouldn't go below 4A). But of course, that depends a lot on what sort of volumes you expect to use.

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    21. To summarize my sleepy posting.

      I had without knowing the first week used this head on a 4 ohm cab and it survived fine, the tube did fail after 2 months.

      I usually don’t push it past half volume, but having read your comments before that it should be able to do 4 ohm fine with more power.

      At least I think I understood it that way.

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    22. Thanks for summarizing it, that is indeed a lot more clear. As i may have mentioned, the power amp chip itself is well capable of delivering full power into 4 ohms, up to the limits of the power supply. Whether that may or may not have affected the tube, i can't really say, but on the other hand... A cheap crap power supply is a cheap crap power supply.

      You might want to look for a (used) laptop brick, 90W or so should do fine. If you're feeling adventurous, you can go for an even higher-power one, if you're willing to replace the connector on the end of the cable.

      Might wanna stick to used ones, and if possible, check the OEM (Original Equipment Manufacturer) on the label - anything from Delta or LiteOn should be great.

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    23. I’ve got a 19v 3.42a 65w msi brick handy, soldering a new tip isn’t an issue for me, but this brick is only almost double the amps and watts.

      I’ll look into finding one, I don’t think I have any laptop bricks more powerful than that.

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    24. MSI is just the branding, but they didn't make it. You'll have to go through some of the fine print (or post a link to a nicely-focused photo of the label).

      And which "this brick" do you mean? And "double the amps and watts"... compared to what?

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    25. Compared to the original, unfortunately it’s only 1v more and a quick search so far has been limited to 19v 4.42a @ 90w, a universal power supply may be the only choice if an old Apple MagSafe power brick isn’t higher voltage, I know it’s 90w.

      I know I have a few liteon and delta around, but they definitely aren’t more than 19v 3.42a, but if I come across one at the thrift store I should be able to get it for cheap.

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    26. "Universal" is not much of an option - i doubt any of the reputable manufacturers make / made any such units. IBM / Lenovo power supplies should be about 20V at (whatever) amps, for what it's worth.

      Aren't all magsafes double-insulated, ie. without earth connection, though?

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    27. The newer ones may be, I have one from a 2006 MacBook Pro that has a common, neutral, earth cable, after that I’m not sure.

      It’s worn on the MagSafe end with the shielding breaking away, but the output cable can be replaced entirely. If I can find it. 😂

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  5. That will work fine for me then, I’m building a cab from an old stereos 10” speakers. 130w 8Ohm on each speaker box. So should be good running just the 10”.

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  6. Hello There,
    Thank you for the invaluable information about this amp.
    I bought a damaged one off ebay in hopes of being able to make it work; however, there is no sound from the Speaker connection jack.

    I have sound/signal in the Headphones and send/return jacks,Bluetooth works however the problem seems to be in the power section of the TPA3118.

    When I first got it i noticed that one of the diodes was broken and it was extremely small to figure out any markings.

    Here is a pic of the diode that I need to replace. I believe it might
    be a diode with an S4 marking but I cannot confirm:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ILjrmZK9ocIqvWpkzkTJDLUKhyOmrAIv/view?usp=sharing

    I had a few attempts at servicing this unit but its very hard to troubleshoot due to it being SMD. I ended removing the TPA3118 chip altogether and I'm hoping that by replacing select components I can revive this.

    Any piece of information that can help me test the Tpa3118 and other components would be greatly appreciated. I could always bastardize the circuit and just connect one of those chinese tpa3118 chips but I'd prefer not to.

    Here is a pic of how its going. Crossing my fingers anyone can help.
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/115xzzOe2zhKa3KFQ8mH6yo8WHV_Jxqyv/view?usp=sharing

    Much Appreciated,
    Gus

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    1. The "S4" diode is one of the many codes for Schottky diodes, one of which seems to be 1SS367:

      https://www.mouser.ec/datasheet/2/408/1SS367_datasheet_en_20140301-740950.pdf

      But any schottky diode in the same package (SOD-323) with the same ratings (at least 10V and 200mA) should do fine there. The glass diode with the blue band is a bit more interesting to identify. I'd suspect it's some Zener diode, but can't say what voltage.

      http://www.marsport.org.uk/smd/sod80.htm

      Those diodes look like they might(?) be part of the supply going to the preamp board, perhaps? But it's tricky to say from the photos i still have here.

      How did you determine those diodes were bad, though?

      Testing the amp chip itself would've been easy by inserting a test signal into the Return jack (thereby bypassing the preamp). Of course, you'd still have the volume potentiometer before that, but still.

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  7. Hey man great work! Just wanted to ask is it possible to add a separate input jack for the clean and dirty channels. So I can use an A/B box to switch channels instead of the footswitch. This way I can use multiple pedals and switch with ease.

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    1. At least in theory yes, although you'll probably want to add a buffer for the second jack input. To make it "fancy" as well as "backwards-compatible", i'd want to use one of those switching jacks, that breaks continuity when you plug something into the "new" jack, but that would take some figuring-out...

      But you might also need to remove at least the K1 relay, but don't quote me on that, i'm lacking some sleep right now.

      Long story short though, yes it is possible, but it's not quite as simple as just adding a jack and a couple wires.

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  8. Hey, i damaged my preamp board while i was working on the amp.
    3 of the small capacitors got lost so im searching for the values so i can replace them.
    any way someone here could help?
    the capacitors in question are C3, C6 and C27
    Thanks

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