And now, getting back to the issue affecting this unit... As pointed out in the ad, the LT3439 apparently used to have a piddly little heatsink glued on top of it, but it got detached. Now, there's a chicken-and-egg type mystery here - did the heatsink glue fail because the chip overheated in the first place? Or did the chip get fried because the heatsink fell off? Regardless, investigation showed that one of the two switching transistors inside the chip seems to be stuck in a conducting state, despite the transistor itself not being shorted, though. But since it handles all the power for the analog circuitry, it's no shocker (no pun intended) that only the digital ins & outs work.
For the sake of "future-proofing" though, this will need a more substantial heatsink (well, as substantial as can fit within the confines of the enclosure), not to mention a much more reliable mounting method. I wonder why those eight solder-filled plated through-holes are placed around the chip, as part of the ground plane... Can you imagine any sane reason?..
Either
way, for the above-mentioned reasons, the through-hole components
around the chip get moved to the underside of the board (plenty of
space), in order to allow as big a heatsink as practical, on the top
side, where the power chip resides.
First
thing's first, though - removing the dud chip. Being particularly lazy
and not wanting to walk all the way to my hot-air station, i figured i'd
bend all the pins up and off the board, then see if i can melt the
solder under the chip through the solder-filled via right under it.
Except that... ehrm... Well, i never got that far.
If that chip's underside metal pad was ever, EVER, soldered to the mainboard, i'm the Pope. And yet, they tried to fix this with the band-aid comprised of the glued-on heatsink. You have GOT to be kidding me... *sigh* This is really embarrassing... This, from a company purported to have made studio mixing consoles and whatnot, and in a unit that isn't exactly the cheapest around (quite far from it, considering the feature set). And which happened to also be their flagship interface at launch, no less.
There's the chip, with the stock(?) heatsink. And with a USB plug, for scale. Nice going, guys, top-notch engineering...
Since
"ain't no kill like overkill", let's do this right: clear the via of
the factory lead-free solder, chuck in some flux, slap on pleeeeeenty of
solder in there, and whack a sizeable heatsink on top. No glue this
time - since those mounting-hole vias are available, why not strap it on
with a piece of copper wire? And add a dab of Arctic Cooling MX-4, to
maximize heat transfer to the heatsink...
Time for some power-testing, then. Aaaaaand... no change at all. Still getting 0.9V or so on the three "small" rails and around 5V on what should be the phantom power rail. All the diodes check out fine, and there seem to be no shorts to ground from either of the rails, on the secondary. And considering the low voltages involved, failed windings in the transformer are virtually impossible.
Drastic measures then - since it's an easy thing to try, i pulled out all four of the 33uH filter inductors on the secondaries of this power supply, in order to see what sort of voltages come up, with no load whatsoever. Turns out the +/- rails come up to +/-17V or so, the third rail goes up to about 11V, and the raw phantom power jumps up to 60V. Those are all ballpark values of what one might expect in such a context. But which one's dragging things down?.. Time to put them back one by one (well, maybe apart from the pair on the symmetrical rails).
First inductor back in was the one for the "5V" rail, which brought the raw voltage down to 6.7V. The analog rails came down to +/-16.3V, and the raw phantom rail to 52V or so. Next, the pair for the opamp rails. That brought the "5V" rail to about 5.4V, and the analog rails to +/-13.6V, while the phantom rail came further down, to 50.5V-ish. Heatsink on the LT3439's getting moderately warm, but not warm enough to burn my finger, even on prolonged contact. Resoldered the phantom inductor as well and... umm... it... seems to work fine now? Seeing 590mA draw at 12.2V from my bench supply.
Now, granted, among the above-mentioned things, i also replaced the little electrolytic next to the LT3439, sort of "just in case", but even after that, output voltages were still in the dumps. I don't get it... But hey, phantom power rail's at 47.6V (and sloooowly creeping upwards slightly), converter supply rail is a solid 5.24V, while the analog rails sit at +13.7/-13.6V. The copper wire holding down the heatsink is getting quite warm-ish, but i'm quite positive the whole setup will be loads more durable, and run considerably... well, if not "cooler", than at the very least "less baking-hot" than the stock setup (with a pathetic U-channel shaped heatsink about half the size of the ground plane outlined by the eight solder-filled holes around the chip).
Would i be mean or unfair, if i called this a marginal design - at the very least, from a thermal standpoint? It just makes me shake my head... I'm almost surprised i haven't seen more of these dead and put up for sale. And that's not a cheap PWM converter either, even in a 2500pc reel, they're still about $4 a piece.
Ah well, what can ya do? Maybe not buying one, or selling it off before it kicks the bucket, i suppose. The interface works again (and should stay that way, at least for a while), but that's one extra reason not to keep it around for long.
Hey Khron,
ReplyDeleteJust found this page -- I am experiencing phantom power problems with my id22 (and observing the same low-but-creeping-upwards voltage behavior you describe in your post. I had been planning to do some selective re-capping, but it looks like you've undertaken a much more thorough deconstruction of the device. In your estimation, is this something that can be solved, or is this whole thing a ticking timebomb?
I would love to keep my id22 ticking -- it's otherwise been a solid performer -- but the shoddy layout and corner-cutting make me wonder if anything can be done.
I took a more thorough deconstruction, pretty much because i had to - the chip that's in charge of all the analog voltages was dead.
DeleteAt the very least, unless the LT3439 is PROPERLY soldered to the ground-plane underneath it, yes, i'd call this "doomed to fail". I added that extra heatsink on top just because i wasn't willing to take any chances.
Seems like a common failure mode that could explain other problems an increasing number of people are having:
Deletehttps://gearspace.com/board/music-computers/1050068-audient-id22-issues-11.html#post15421736
Thanks for your posts!
Well, that's what you want or expect from a piece of gear that cost (relatively) an arm and a d*ck, for its limited feature set, isn't it? And how else are you gonna buy their newer releases?
DeleteI know, i'm a bitter, cynical bastard, but... Well, can you blame me, when i can't help but be somewhat embarassed on behalf of the engineering team, who's let down by the bean-counters and whatnot?
Hi I was wondering if you do repairs? I have similar issues with my ID22, but don't possess the knowledge and skills to confidently carry out the kind of repairs your posts describe. Your fix is especially intriguing because it seems like you're actually improving whats there instead of a straight fix? Would it be possible to send you my unit to fix?
ReplyDeleteAt least in theory yes, but on the other hand, i can't know how (economically) feasible that might be - totally depends on where you live, first of all.
DeletePiggybacking off this comment to say I have the same issue with my Audient ID22. I would be extremely interested in sending you my unit and paying for all shipping and services. I live in Houston, TX. If this is too much of a request I understand, thank you.
DeleteIt's not "too much of a request" as such, i'm just not sure how financially feasible it would be for you to pay to ship it both ways across the Atlantic, plus whatever the repair might cost.
DeleteI'd gladly do it, but in some ways i kinda hope you're not quite so emotionally attached to that interface, to be willing to shell out probably more than it's currently worth, to revive it.
Hello Khron thanks for all this info. I am trying to fix my ID22, my computer connects to it and I am able to get signal in through the preamps, onto the DAW and out (I do get responsive LED signal above the main volume knob). But I don't hear anything, my mains and headphone outputs appear to be dead. Any chance you can help me figure out what components might need to be switched? My unit is old probably been using it since 2015. Audient said I need a new PCB but I think that's BS. I am in Tijuana Mexico but can ship from San Diego if you are up for it. I do want to give it a shot since I am not flush with cash atm.
ReplyDeletenvm, I just got home and checked and the preamps do not receive any signal
DeleteSo does yours still have an issue, or..?
DeleteHey, just did this repair thanks to your guide, my unit was still working but sometimes produced very loud cracking, popping and static noises which I read are signs that the 2.2uF cap next to the LT3439 radiator is giving out. I decided to leave the stock radiator because it was glued to the pcb with some silicone goo so didn't want to mess with that but I moved the neighbouring components to the other side of the board, reflowed the ground plane connection to the regulator and upgraded the cap to a Nichicon 2.2uF 400V 105C one just in case. Works well now and doesn't seem to get as warm though I didn't really measure before and after properly. I'm maybe going to upgrade the radiator when it arrives, this time 20x20x15mm, so should be plenty. Hope it'll last a couple years more. Thanks for this teardown, really helpful
ReplyDeleteYou're very welcome, and i'm glad my "adventures" helped another person!
DeleteThe voltage of that capacitor (63v) was way overkill to begin with - 400v even more so, especially since it's across the 12v input. If anything, more uF would help even more, but as long as it works...
I bought a broken unit for cheap on the local used market and managed to fix it by replacing the chip, I've also upgraded to a bigger heatsink, But one issue still bugs me. The unit gets way too hot. I used to leave my cheap Scarlett solo plugged overnight and even listen to music while sleeping, I can't leave the id22 plugged in overnight, I'm afraid it'll toast itself again...and the chip wasn't exactly cheap, especially where I live. Do you have any solution to the heating problem ? Thanks!
ReplyDeleteNot really, short of drilling some vent-holes into the sides of the enclosure.
DeleteSeriously, the same people allegedly designed consoles with 5-figure prices? I'd be so embarassed...
Mine has kicked the bucket today. I've started googling and found your blog. Interface is recognized and dB LEDs react, but there is no output in either outs or headphones. When I touch the heatsink it almost burns my finger and I can smell PCB lacquer up close. Do you recommend me buying LT3439 and replacing or does this symptom mean something else?
ReplyDeleteThe thermal conductor used under heatsink is also something pathetic to see:
https://i.imgur.com/6Xx5krS.jpg
That's not even any "thermal conductor" - that's just silicone they used to hold the heatsink in place...
DeleteI'd rather start by measuring voltages, though. It's difficult, as well as a bad idea, to go about shotgunning parts based on mere hunches (unless the issue is difficult or impossible to probe or measure - not the case, here).
You won't believe. I actually had warranty time remaining so I sent it back to Thomann. After like month or so they return it back "fixed" and working. And what do I see? The same freaking heatsink is attached with the very same type of gooey glue. Even worse, there was a thin layer of that substance between chip and the heatsink!.. It would again almost burn the finger to the touch.
DeleteIt almost died on me, guess when the chip got hot enough sound just cut off. I knew I had to do something about it or it would blow again. Although I haven't soldered since forever and my soldering iron is a pathetic pencil, it still went well. With bigger heatsink and Arctic MX6, the patient is feeling slightly warm to the touch and there are no more issues so far :)
https://imgur.com/a/iBqPFeg
Well, that sort of "warranty" service is utterly charming. I consider i haven't lost much by not having bought almost any retail electronics in ages...
DeleteBut hey, "if it's stupid and it works, it ain't stupid". Unfortunately it goes both ways (both the "warranty repair", as well as your actual fix), but the end justifies the means - glad to hear you got yours working reliably again!
Hey! its there a chance you know the value of de CF3 capacitor? I had the same problem but it was the CF3 that blew up. Thanks!
ReplyDeleteStock, it's (or was, rather) 2.2uF / 63v - pointlessly. It's only filtering the 12V coming from the plug-pack anyway, so it's not that critical (except when it's pathetically under-spec'd, as it was from the factory).
DeleteYou'll wanna use a name-brand replacement (Panasonic, Rubycon, Nichicon, United Chemi-Con or Elna), preferably from a low-ESR series, 25V or 35V rated, and arguably "as big as you can fit" - probably not much point going a lot over 220uF-470uF though.
Thanks A LOT for your posts and the time you spent troubleshooting your ID22 unit ! I was about to buy a new interface, but thanks to you I decided to try the capacitor swap fix.
ReplyDeleteWould this replacement work ? https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Panasonic/EEU-EB1V330S?qs=vwnjb5whwEUabeG0Wy17MQ%3D%3D
I'd rather install one as big as you can fit. Voltage-wise, 16-25V should be fine, and even something like 100-470uF wouldn't be too big. You'll want to stick to the "big brands" (Panasonic, Rubycon, Nichicon, Elna, United ChemiCon), and pick one from a low-ESR series.
Delete